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	<title>Comments on: The Ethics of Death</title>
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	<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/</link>
	<description>Where Ideas are Valued.. and Evaluated</description>
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		<title>By: Haider</title>
		<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/comment-page-1/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator>Haider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:17:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/?p=24#comment-2341</guid>
		<description>Nosayba, many thanks for contributing your thoughtful insights.

Responding to the points you mentioned:

1- I admit that I generalize, in general (:P), but when we are dealing with society and culture, it is important to accept that there are prominent trends which determine the *general* direction society is heading in. That is, it is fair to generalize without dismissing the exceptions. 

I do not deny the fact that there are Muslims and preachers who do not fit the template that I spoke about. But when it comes to Muslim societies, these are the exceptions. The general trend follows the path that I mentioned (of focusing on the reward/punishment to anticipate in the after-life).

2- While I may dispute some of the &quot;scientific&quot; studies conducted by Muslim scholars, I do not deny that there have been many attempts to find &quot;worldly&quot; wisdom in Islamic rituals and laws. But if I was to say the following: &quot;I do not pay my Zakat.&quot;

Is your initial reaction: 

&quot;Oh my God! But this will have a negative affect on society&#039;s well-being!!&quot;

Or:

&quot;Oh my God! You&#039;re going to hell!&quot;

I&#039;m not going to generalize, but I believe that a good number of Muslims will think the latter as a knee-jerk reaction. They *may* then use their &quot;scientific&quot; explanations to rationalize their beliefs. However, it&#039;s not because of these reasons that they give Zakat. They give Zakat because they *have* to, and they anticipate punishment if they don&#039;t, and reward if they do.

3- I don&#039;t believe that people can place the burden of responsibility on other people&#039;s shoulders. Responsibilities are non-refundable and non-transferable. However, in a society that depends on scholars for their understanding of Islam, the scholars are to blame if Islam is misunderstood by the society. If people choose not to live by Islamic teachings, that is their choice. But who determines how Islam is understood? In most cases, it is the scholars.

They are the ones who represent Islam to the Muslims, and to the world at large. They are the ones most vocal in spreading the teachings of Islam and the most active in defending it. If society turns towards the scholars for guidance, then the responsibility of the scholars is even greater. And if the scholars are casting doubt on people&#039;s ability to think for themselves, and are teaching society that they must turn to the scholars for guidance, then they are the ones placing a greater burden on their own shoulders.

Behind every extremist group are scholars that justify their actions. 

I don&#039;t deny that there are other factors involved in promoting morality, but the scholars take the lion&#039;s share of the blame for its collapse. Compared to the catastrophes they cause (be it in commission or omission), all other factors play a minor role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nosayba, many thanks for contributing your thoughtful insights.</p>
<p>Responding to the points you mentioned:</p>
<p>1- I admit that I generalize, in general (:P), but when we are dealing with society and culture, it is important to accept that there are prominent trends which determine the *general* direction society is heading in. That is, it is fair to generalize without dismissing the exceptions. </p>
<p>I do not deny the fact that there are Muslims and preachers who do not fit the template that I spoke about. But when it comes to Muslim societies, these are the exceptions. The general trend follows the path that I mentioned (of focusing on the reward/punishment to anticipate in the after-life).</p>
<p>2- While I may dispute some of the &#8220;scientific&#8221; studies conducted by Muslim scholars, I do not deny that there have been many attempts to find &#8220;worldly&#8221; wisdom in Islamic rituals and laws. But if I was to say the following: &#8220;I do not pay my Zakat.&#8221;</p>
<p>Is your initial reaction: </p>
<p>&#8220;Oh my God! But this will have a negative affect on society&#8217;s well-being!!&#8221;</p>
<p>Or:</p>
<p>&#8220;Oh my God! You&#8217;re going to hell!&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to generalize, but I believe that a good number of Muslims will think the latter as a knee-jerk reaction. They *may* then use their &#8220;scientific&#8221; explanations to rationalize their beliefs. However, it&#8217;s not because of these reasons that they give Zakat. They give Zakat because they *have* to, and they anticipate punishment if they don&#8217;t, and reward if they do.</p>
<p>3- I don&#8217;t believe that people can place the burden of responsibility on other people&#8217;s shoulders. Responsibilities are non-refundable and non-transferable. However, in a society that depends on scholars for their understanding of Islam, the scholars are to blame if Islam is misunderstood by the society. If people choose not to live by Islamic teachings, that is their choice. But who determines how Islam is understood? In most cases, it is the scholars.</p>
<p>They are the ones who represent Islam to the Muslims, and to the world at large. They are the ones most vocal in spreading the teachings of Islam and the most active in defending it. If society turns towards the scholars for guidance, then the responsibility of the scholars is even greater. And if the scholars are casting doubt on people&#8217;s ability to think for themselves, and are teaching society that they must turn to the scholars for guidance, then they are the ones placing a greater burden on their own shoulders.</p>
<p>Behind every extremist group are scholars that justify their actions. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t deny that there are other factors involved in promoting morality, but the scholars take the lion&#8217;s share of the blame for its collapse. Compared to the catastrophes they cause (be it in commission or omission), all other factors play a minor role.</p>
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		<title>By: Nosayba</title>
		<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/comment-page-1/#comment-2319</link>
		<dc:creator>Nosayba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/?p=24#comment-2319</guid>
		<description>Very interesting, Haider. I agree with you when it comes to the dangers of separating morality from principles, and using the &quot;Akhirah&quot; concept to justify harmful or insensible practices. 

There are few points that I&#039;d like to share:

1. When raising such a subject, it is important to explain and distinguish the different preaching approaches in Islam: &quot;Encouragement and Warning&quot;, (in Arabic &quot;Al-targheeb &amp; Al-tarheeb&quot;). Scholars are advised to alternate between those two approaches for the sake of inciting both hope and fear, since neither of them is effective on its own. Now, if we relate those hopes and fears to only after-life aspects -as you claim &quot;most&quot; scholars do-, then it&#039;ll be completely senseless to talk about any Islamic teachings that encourage a healthy life, social reform, etc; basically anything that affects the happiness of people and societies in this Life.  

2.  &quot;Muslims, in general, see morality as a list of actions that we must perform, and others that we must avoid&quot;.. &amp; &quot;Many preachers usually counsel their fellow believers..etc&quot; 

But do they? I might slightly disagree with you here.
Let&#039;s take a concrete example: &quot;Zakah&quot; and charity in Islam. Do muslims -in general- not understand the benefits of Zakah for the society? Do we not have scholars that study, on scientific basis, the Economic system of Islam, or explain why Riba (Money interests) are forbidden, and so on and so forth. 

3. I believe that to some extent it is unfair to blame the collapse of morality on scholars and preachers, alone. Yes, they have a great responsibility, being in the position they are, but along with them there are other significant factors that should be considered if you are going to diagnose the great collapse of morals we&#039;re facing nowadays. The economic degradation, the oppressive political systems, etc.. 

Conclusion..
Easy on the generalizations :D

Nosayba.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting, Haider. I agree with you when it comes to the dangers of separating morality from principles, and using the &#8220;Akhirah&#8221; concept to justify harmful or insensible practices. </p>
<p>There are few points that I&#8217;d like to share:</p>
<p>1. When raising such a subject, it is important to explain and distinguish the different preaching approaches in Islam: &#8220;Encouragement and Warning&#8221;, (in Arabic &#8220;Al-targheeb &amp; Al-tarheeb&#8221;). Scholars are advised to alternate between those two approaches for the sake of inciting both hope and fear, since neither of them is effective on its own. Now, if we relate those hopes and fears to only after-life aspects -as you claim &#8220;most&#8221; scholars do-, then it&#8217;ll be completely senseless to talk about any Islamic teachings that encourage a healthy life, social reform, etc; basically anything that affects the happiness of people and societies in this Life.  </p>
<p>2.  &#8220;Muslims, in general, see morality as a list of actions that we must perform, and others that we must avoid&#8221;.. &amp; &#8220;Many preachers usually counsel their fellow believers..etc&#8221; </p>
<p>But do they? I might slightly disagree with you here.<br />
Let&#8217;s take a concrete example: &#8220;Zakah&#8221; and charity in Islam. Do muslims -in general- not understand the benefits of Zakah for the society? Do we not have scholars that study, on scientific basis, the Economic system of Islam, or explain why Riba (Money interests) are forbidden, and so on and so forth. </p>
<p>3. I believe that to some extent it is unfair to blame the collapse of morality on scholars and preachers, alone. Yes, they have a great responsibility, being in the position they are, but along with them there are other significant factors that should be considered if you are going to diagnose the great collapse of morals we&#8217;re facing nowadays. The economic degradation, the oppressive political systems, etc.. </p>
<p>Conclusion..<br />
Easy on the generalizations <img src='http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Nosayba.</p>
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		<title>By: Haider</title>
		<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/comment-page-1/#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>Haider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/?p=24#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>Salah: Thanks :)

Seth: Ok, I have a confession to make!

I read half the book, then read the book, For the New Intellectual (with the speech)! I was reading her novel at the same time as I was trying to get my head around her philosophy, so I kept reading the non-fiction books, as well.

As for concern for the after-life, I&#039;ll be writing a post on that soon. In any case, I don&#039;t think the after-life should be used to determine what is and isn&#039;t moral, and certainly not to overlook the earthly consequences of our actions.

Skinnybumblebee: I don&#039;t believe morality is fluid, but it can be flexible, based on the circumstances one lives in. However, morality is related to human nature, and not to time. As long as human beings share similar traits throughout the span of history and in different parts of the world, they will (or should) share a similar moral code.

I believe that morality should be objective. It should be based on reality, and not on shallow opinions, ignorance or whims. Therefore, we can judge our inherited moral codes by determining how compatible they are with reality.

And I certainly agree that people should live according to their personal convictions, but this doesn&#039;t mean that people should form their moral code based on personal whims. Even if you don&#039;t harm anyone *else* you will be the first victim of an irrational, subjective moral code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salah: Thanks <img src='http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Seth: Ok, I have a confession to make!</p>
<p>I read half the book, then read the book, For the New Intellectual (with the speech)! I was reading her novel at the same time as I was trying to get my head around her philosophy, so I kept reading the non-fiction books, as well.</p>
<p>As for concern for the after-life, I&#8217;ll be writing a post on that soon. In any case, I don&#8217;t think the after-life should be used to determine what is and isn&#8217;t moral, and certainly not to overlook the earthly consequences of our actions.</p>
<p>Skinnybumblebee: I don&#8217;t believe morality is fluid, but it can be flexible, based on the circumstances one lives in. However, morality is related to human nature, and not to time. As long as human beings share similar traits throughout the span of history and in different parts of the world, they will (or should) share a similar moral code.</p>
<p>I believe that morality should be objective. It should be based on reality, and not on shallow opinions, ignorance or whims. Therefore, we can judge our inherited moral codes by determining how compatible they are with reality.</p>
<p>And I certainly agree that people should live according to their personal convictions, but this doesn&#8217;t mean that people should form their moral code based on personal whims. Even if you don&#8217;t harm anyone *else* you will be the first victim of an irrational, subjective moral code.</p>
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		<title>By: Skinnybumblebee</title>
		<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/comment-page-1/#comment-1393</link>
		<dc:creator>Skinnybumblebee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 05:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/?p=24#comment-1393</guid>
		<description>Morality is a system of ideas like everything else they change
sure we still abide by things from the past but how sure
are we that they are correct? 

I agree on the preachers though no 
One should be voiceing out their ideas in such ways 
Thats why everyone should live by 
Their own standrads as long as they are not harming anyone ofcourse...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morality is a system of ideas like everything else they change<br />
sure we still abide by things from the past but how sure<br />
are we that they are correct? </p>
<p>I agree on the preachers though no<br />
One should be voiceing out their ideas in such ways<br />
Thats why everyone should live by<br />
Their own standrads as long as they are not harming anyone ofcourse&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/blog/2008/08/28/the-ethics-of-death/comment-page-1/#comment-1386</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.afilsforyourthoughts.com/?p=24#comment-1386</guid>
		<description>You are reading her novels now?  Bravo, Haider!  They are even better than the non-fiction.  Sometimes it&#039;s interesting for me to contemplate that the volumes of her work, essays and novels and playwrights, all spring from a very basic assumption: A is A.  Sometimes I think scientists forget this basic tenet of all reason.  To think they are still trying to find an &#039;elegant, simple&#039; equation to explain all of existence, and it&#039;s been there for thousands of years.

Anyways (sorry to go on my Ayn Rand admiration stint), if morality is to be geared towards the physical world, to what extent should the living be concerned with the &#039;after life?&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are reading her novels now?  Bravo, Haider!  They are even better than the non-fiction.  Sometimes it&#8217;s interesting for me to contemplate that the volumes of her work, essays and novels and playwrights, all spring from a very basic assumption: A is A.  Sometimes I think scientists forget this basic tenet of all reason.  To think they are still trying to find an &#8216;elegant, simple&#8217; equation to explain all of existence, and it&#8217;s been there for thousands of years.</p>
<p>Anyways (sorry to go on my Ayn Rand admiration stint), if morality is to be geared towards the physical world, to what extent should the living be concerned with the &#8216;after life?&#8217;</p>
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